Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Jerusalem is a place of rumors and speculations, a den of intrigue and distrust. It is a battleground of interests, national interests, religious interests, community interests, and most notably, self interest. Self interest in all its necessity, ugliness and shamefulness. It is a place where the ungodly reigns just beneath the surface of piety, where hatred and scandal lurk creepily behind.
[00:00:26] Speaker B: The shops, the doors, the gates.
[00:00:28] Speaker A: A place where collaborators smile, backstabbers hug, and liars are greeted with coffee and regalia. Jerusalem is a place where oppression and subjugation are carried out in unearthly ways on many levels. A place where human futures are stifled to make room for political agendas and where humanity falls prey daily to arbitrariness, corruption and sin.
Where digging too much opens doors to another world very, very far away from anything righteous.
Jerusalem is a place where actual human beings quietly suffer. A place that the whole world watches gleefully glimmering on a hill, yet at the same time just looks away from allowing the vile inhumanity of occupation to infect everything, to fester in everything, to sicken everything. And in this Jerusalem, just beneath the cobblestone streets, warm smiles and icon filled shops are survivors. Jaded survivors, exhausted survivors, silently screaming survivors.
[00:01:38] Speaker C: This is the inside scoop Jerusalem, with your host, Nicole Jansezian.
Well, well, well. With a city like this, who needs Netflix?
What you just heard was the forward of a report from a fact finding mission comprised of a team of lawyers trying to get to the bottom of a land deal in this very city.
The report was read by Cetrag Balian, who is one of the two men I interview in today's episode. Just a little bit less than a year ago, the tiny little armenian quarter, which is tucked into one sin of Jerusalem's old city, burst onto the international stage, that's when a controversial land deal was just making its way into the public eye. The deal is dripping with all sorts of geopolitical nuances.
Now, the Armenian Quarter doesn't get much press. The Armenians are quiet people that blend into the land. They have lived here seamlessly and peacefully under all kinds of rulers and governments for nearly 2000 years. So why now? What happened? And how does this impact you, wherever you are listening around the world? Well, that's what we're going to talk about today.
And as if to underscore the attention that this issue is receiving, today's interview, which was being recorded live at the Armenian Quarter, was interrupted by, well, one of these players from the world stage.
I have to say, if ever there was an auspicious interruption. This was it. So why don't we just get right into it and listen to part one of the vaunted armenian land deal?
[00:03:37] Speaker D: By the way, this is the first time I'm recording live for a podcast, so I think it's. Oh, it's live, kind of. Not really. It's not. It's not going live. It'll be published later. But this is the first live recording, like in person, which I think is exciting and of all places do it. The armenian quarter, of course. And so we've got, in the background, we've got bagpipes, we've got drums, and the lead up for Easter, if there will be an Easter. And we're sitting in the headquarters of the Hoitschmann Club, right?
[00:04:13] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:04:13] Speaker D: Okay. Now I'm sitting with Cetrag Balian and Hagop Generzyan. Yes, I said that, right? Oh, awesome. Okay, first start. All right. And these two young men have risen up to be the more than spokesman, but the main go to activists for an issue that is currently gripping the armenian quarter here in Jerusalem's old city. Now, I want to talk a little bit about first the armenian quarter, and even why is there an armenian quarter? And what's special, what can you tell us about why we're sitting on this little sliver of land? It's not technically one quarter, it's less than that. But why is there one?
[00:05:05] Speaker B: So this is the question we get the most, and I think this is what amazes most of the people when they look at the map of the old city. You see christian quarter, muslim quarter, jewish quarter, and then finally armenian quarter. And people are like, but Armenians are Christians and so on. Why do they have a separate quarter? So to get to the bottom of it.
[00:05:28] Speaker D: 1St.
[00:05:28] Speaker B: 1St let's go back to the fourth century, of course, 301 Armenians become the first nation to adopt Christianity as a state religion under Tiridates III. And so the Pilgrims, armenian pilgrims start arriving quite early. So fourth century upwards, pilgrims start heading towards Jerusalem and slowly settling in Jerusalem. So the biggest piece that will kind of create the armenian quarter will be the St. James Cathedral, St. James Cathedral, which was, which became under armenian jurisdiction in the 12th century. And it is where we have both Saint James, Saint James the just, and St. James the Great, who are buried there, and of course, the head of Santiago de Compostela, who is one of the biggest pilots pilgrimage sites for Catholics worldwide who go to Spain for this pilgrimage. And his head is located inside the armenian quarter, inside the armenian convent. So what happened when the St. James Cathedral was acquired. There was also a church there, fifth century church already built in that area.
And once the church established itself on Mount Zion, on St. James, the armenian community and the pilgrims that were in Jerusalem started gathering around that church, around St. James. And that is how slowly the armenian quarter of Jerusalem was born.
So you have two kinds of Armenians in Jerusalem. You have the Karakazis, which are the locals, and these are the old Armenians. These are the Armenians that came pre genocide, mainly with the crusaders, because the kingdom of Kilikia played a pivotal role in the crusades conquests of Jerusalem. And the kingdom of Jerusalem.
Armenians were very present during that time and came with all the crusaders. And we even had, of course, five armenian queens of Jerusalem. The most famous is Melisandre, and amongst others, also Arda and Morphia and many others. And the other part of Armenians. The other category, if you will, of Armenians are the refugees of the armenian genocide, who came after 1915, obviously, and who were taken inside the convent as a place of refuge and protection, fleeing persecution and mass massacres.
So mainly the refugees are still today inside the convent. And the Karakazis are around the convent, inside the armenian court.
And the armenian presence, obviously, the Armenians have had huge contributions to the city. Armenians in general have always contributed to their environment, wherever they may be. But specifically in Jerusalem, we have rich history. It was an armenian queen who gathered all the churches of the Holy Sepulcher and made it one church. It was also Armenians historically. For example, when Napoleon reached Jaffa and his soldiers got sick, they were cured by armenian monks. And that is also when Napoleon gave them a piece of cloth from his tent, which are today used as garments in the church until today.
And also, of course, pioneers in trade and crafts and arts, mainly. In 1833, Armenians had the first printing press of Jerusalem.
And 19th century, mid 19th century century, the first studio photography, thanks to patriarchy Saiga Rabidyan, who was himself a photographer. But because he could not continue being a good photographer, he decided to open a school of photography. And that is where the first armenian studio will be opened by Krikorian.
And of course, the cerames, the armenian ceramics of Jerusalem that was brought by three armenian families to the region. And jewelers, watchmakers, you name it. Any trade and craft Armenians were the first the pioneers to bring it to the city. And so Armenians have been an inseparable and integral part of Jerusalem. And they have always contributed and given to the city without asking anything in return.
[00:09:56] Speaker D: So, Hagop, can you tell me about the armenian population today? Like how many people there are living here in Jerusalem, maybe throughout the Holy Land in general, and, you know, in the convent and break it down for us.
[00:10:15] Speaker E: So as Etrag mentioned, the armenian presence in Jerusalem dates back to the fourth century. And we had during different years and times, the number used to change. And for example, after the genocide, when many refugees and survivors of the genocide arrived in Jerusalem, around 20,000 Armenians from the genocide arrived here in Jerusalem. But following the wars, the 48th war, six days War, 67, 73, and the political and economical situation in Jerusalem affected a lot the armenian community and christian communities in general in the Old City. So today the number of Armenians living in Jerusalem is around 2000 Armenians, and most of them live in the quarter, in the convent. Of course, there are many families living in the convent and around the convent, which is the quarter, and of course, in other neighborhoods in Jerusalem, in west and East Jerusalem, but also in many other cities in the Holy Land, in Israel, in Palestine, there are armenian communities, for example, in Jaffa, in Haifa, in Bethlehem Ramleh and other villages, whether it's in Israel, whether it's in Palestine. So we can say that the population of Armenians living in the Holy Land, there are few thousands Armenians. But the big community, the large number of Armenians living is in Jerusalem. And this is our center. This is where we have our quarter. This is where, where we have the St. James Cathedral, as setrag mentioned, this is where we have the only armenian school, the clubs, the community centers. And that's why our communities centered here in the old city, gathered in the old city, around the corridor around the St. James Cathedral. And all these places, they keep us close together because if we compare us to other communities, there are many separated groups, communities living in different places. But the Armenians are very close to each other, like small family knowing each other.
[00:12:40] Speaker B: And also, of course, the armenian patriarchate was established in the 7th century, in 638. So when the Greeks stopped appointing bishops because they were forbidden to, the Armenians started appointing. And the first bishop, Abraham was appointed in 638. And actually the Armenians are the only ones who've had continuously since the establishment of the patriarchate, patriarchs of Jerusalem, the Greeks, was interrupted for 100 years. The latin patriarch was, I think, exiled by Saladin. So the only patriarch that stayed throughout its creation was the armenian patriarch, who was even bishop Abraham had protection from the prophet Muhammad himself and from the different successive, the Mamluks, Umar ibn Khattab.
So every ruler that came to Jerusalem, the Armenians, were always present and had always good relations with the rulers of Jerusalem.
[00:13:40] Speaker D: That's amazing. I mean, the thread and the consistency and also the language. You know, I don't think even the Greeks all speak Greek, even if they're greek Christians, necessarily. But the Armenians all speak Armenian still. It's the first language here in the quarter.
[00:13:57] Speaker E: The Greeks, they speak. I mean, the community.
The community of the Greek Orthodox. The Greek orthodox community, they speak Arabic, right?
They are Arab Christians and they speak Arabic, but their priests, they speak Greek because they come from.
[00:14:16] Speaker D: They're from the liturgy and everything, I'm sure. But for the people, you've managed to preserve a culture, a language, a way of life. And so it's interesting because, you know, when tourists come, and I'm sure, like most people who would be listening to this are from overseas, and they come, maybe come to Jerusalem once in their lifetime, and they, you know, people go to the old city, but they don't necessarily stop in the armenian because there's not much for tourists here. It's mostly for the community.
[00:14:51] Speaker E: This is.
[00:14:52] Speaker D: It's life. It's school, library, clubs and parking also.
[00:14:59] Speaker E: You said school clubs, other institutions. I mean, there is the holy trinity, which is God the Son and the Holy Spirit, we Armenians. And this is what I see it. In the diaspora, we have also the Holy Trinity regarding not only the Holy Trinity that we all know, but the school, the church, and the club.
These three, they keep us united. They keep us close to our traditions, culture, roots. And this is our holy Trinity.
And the church, the school and the club kept the armenian community not only in Jerusalem, but all over the armenian diaspora after the genocide. Because the genocide was, I mean, I can say the biggest.
The biggest event in our history, which affected lot their main population in western Armenia. And also the genocide created basically many communities in the diaspora. But the armenian community in Jerusalem is the first armenian community in the armenian diaspora. But also the armenian community of Jerusalem is live now thanks to these three institutions, which is the church, the school, and the club. These three, they go together. And if you don't have a school in your community, you cannot leave. If you don't have a club in your community, you cannot continue and leave.
Or the church. There are many armenian communities around the world that they don't have a church. There are many communities, they don't have a school, they don't have a club.
[00:16:56] Speaker B: Most assimilated.
[00:16:58] Speaker D: Oh, wow.
[00:16:59] Speaker E: But the Middle east, it's a bit different because many Armenians arrived in the Middle east after the genocide, and then they established all what we know today.
[00:17:12] Speaker D: Okay, so it was about one year ago. It's a little bit less than one year ago that the armenian quarter exploded into to the international headlines all over the world. Suddenly, the little quarter that nobody heard about or stopped in, or they, oh, there's an armenian quarter. I wonder what that means. But they don't bother to find out. They keep running on their way to the christian quarter. The holy Sepulcher or the western wall or the Alaks.
[00:17:45] Speaker B: Perhaps we haven't also done the job to make them aware.
[00:17:49] Speaker D: Hey, look, it's not your fault, but I'm just saying, all of a sudden, everybody is saying, the armenian border, parking and cow's garden. And so here we are. And this is the reason for this interview today, is to get to the bottom of this, this biggest controversy perhaps in the armenian history in Jerusalem, if we can actually think about it. But where do you want to start with that? I mean, how do you tell this story? It is so massive and full of details.
[00:18:28] Speaker E: We should start from basically 1967.
[00:18:33] Speaker D: Okay.
[00:18:34] Speaker E: We should start from there. And why from there? I mean, this land we are talking about, which is the cow's garden, there's another name which is the armenian garden. And so this is the biggest open space in the armenian quarter. And this is the place where we, as a community, we see our future, our past, present and future. And why since 1967? Because since 1967, this land was targeted and started to be a target by different authorities, by different groups. And that's why we reached to this point where now we are fighting for the future of this land. But it's not only the future of this land, it's also the future of the armenian presence in Jerusalem. The rich presence, the long presence, is now under danger because of this piece of land, because of this cow's garden. I think thanks to this struggle, the cow's garden now is, I think, one of the most important topics in the armenian world. War.
[00:19:44] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:19:44] Speaker E: And not only in the armenian world, but also in the Middle east. It's turning to be one of the headlines in the Middle east. Problems. As if we don't have other problems with.
[00:19:59] Speaker B: Have enough.
[00:19:59] Speaker D: Right. It was the big issue until October 7 and.
[00:20:04] Speaker E: Yeah, but it's still.
[00:20:06] Speaker D: But it's still a big, obviously it's. But so 67. So presumably this was, the cow's garden was in Jordan up until 67, and then after that war, it became part of Israel. So, okay, so then the struggle starts. People are looking at this. I think you can, you can even bring it up to Camp David.
And what year was Camp David David?
[00:20:32] Speaker B: 2000.
[00:20:32] Speaker D: It was 2000.
[00:20:34] Speaker B: So before Camp David, the five time mayor of Jerusalem, Teddy Kolik, who is very well known in these areas, tried a few times to get some sort of exchange with this land.
He exerted some pressures on different officials, the patriarchate, but he repeatedly failed. And even to go further back to understand how this is the biggest existential threat and how it's also shocking that it's happening today. During the ottoman empire, Cemal Pasha, one of the architects of the armenian genocide, wanted the cow's garden to build his palace, his summer palace over there. And he did not succeed. He failed. And it was during the Ottoman Empire, during the armenian genocide. And despite all that, he failed. And today, the israeli authorities or this development company and whoever may or may not be behind them will go into that later. They have come closer than the architects of the armenian genocide in expropriating or in taking over this land.
[00:21:45] Speaker D: So, God, when you put it that way, that's pretty bad.
[00:21:49] Speaker B: 1600 years of presence. The biggest threat is today under what is supposed to be the biggest, the only democracy of the Middle east. And democracy means freedom of religion, freedom of worship means the respect of the different communities and specifically of the minorities.
So that is what we are trying to understand also. Where is that freedom of religion and worship, and where is that protection of the minorities?
[00:22:16] Speaker D: Okay, but wait, so now we're getting into the fact that there was a real estate deal. There's a real estate was or is, you know, going on right now for the cows garden. And so many people would say, what. What does this have to do with freedom of religion? This is just a business deal because it's also legal to sell and. And write a contract and say, you know, I'm going to sell this for this amount of money. So.
So first explain to us, you know, what happened. Whoever wants to take it and what is this contract? When did this come up? And this is the headline that rocked the world.
[00:22:56] Speaker E: Rumors started to circulate since 2018 that the patriarchate is willing to sign a contract with the municipality. The beginning was allowing the police station, the Kishle, to park their cars. It was the beginning. Ten cars, then five cars. Then the fight was over. The number of cars will park. Then a deal with the municipality for four years. Then we heard it's five years, then it's. Then it was ten years. So in March 2020, the patriarchate signed the first agreement regarding the Cows garden.
[00:23:36] Speaker D: In March 2020, it was the first.
[00:23:40] Speaker E: Agreement during COVID And they signed the agreement leasing one part of the parking lot to the municipality, to the Jerusalem Development development usage agreement. Yeah.
To use the land for ten years, the municipality will clean the area which was full of rubbles and dirt. And in return, the patriarchate will allow the municipality to park to give them 90 spaces for the residents of the jewish quarter. I mean, it will be the decision of the municipality who will be able to park from the jewish courtaum in the Patriot gave 90 spaces.
[00:24:25] Speaker B: But the operation and maintenance of the parking lot remains in the hands of the armenian patriarchate.
[00:24:31] Speaker E: Okay. Yes, it's written in the contract. But there is also another important article in the contract, in the usage agreement. I think it's article eight or nine, which says that whenever a permit will be given to the patriarchate or to a company to build a hotel on the land, the usage agreement with the municipality will be cancelled automatically.
So the municipality cleaned the area and then a year.
Yeah. April 2021 the opening ceremony of the parking lot took place where the mayor of Jerusalem, Moshe Leon attended. The patriarch himself, the former real estate director Barett Yer Etzian and other figures from the patriarchate attended the event.
And a few months later, the Petyargate signed the current agreement, which is the 98 year leader lease with the Zana Guardians company.
So the patriarch signed the deal on the 7 July 2021 with the australian businessman Danny Rubinstein Rothman. And the deal is as follows. 98 year 11,500 m², which includes the parking lot, includes five houses of armenian families, the Garden of the Patriarch, the parking lot of the patriarchate and the whole of the seminary, the whole of Alex and Mariman, which was built by the Manurian family and the community use it and the convent use it to have ceremonies and especially using it to commemorate the Armenians genocide.
So the other articles in the contract. So the company paid $2 million to the patriarchate as lump sum. And in return, the company also will pay to the patriarchate every year $300,000.
But also which is laughable amount, the $2,300,000 in the old city. In the old city, the highest point in the old city, the largest open space, the most strategic, one of the.
[00:27:06] Speaker B: Strategic areas stuck to the ramparts of the whole city.
[00:27:10] Speaker E: I mean, and an integral part of the armenian quarter. I mean, if you go to the christian quarter or the muslim or the jewish quarter, you will not find open spaces, right? The armenian quarter is lucky and not lucky to have open spaces. Lucky because you can use your open spaces for the benefit of your community and church, but not lucky because you are more targeted comparing to other communities. So. And also another important fact from the contract is that the company will pay also 5% of the total income of the profits of the hotel.
[00:27:49] Speaker B: 5% of the profits?
[00:27:50] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:27:50] Speaker B: Unless they register a loss. And then that loss is deducted from the animal rent.
[00:27:55] Speaker E: From the $300,000. I mean, they can. They can easily, easily register $1 million we had lost this year. And then the paycheck, it should pay.
[00:28:06] Speaker D: Wow.
[00:28:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Deducted from the rent, basically.
[00:28:10] Speaker E: So this is basically. This is a very bad deal if we speak the size of it, which includes many institutions and integral parts of the quarter.
[00:28:21] Speaker B: It's not even an apartment.
[00:28:24] Speaker E: Right. I mean, I was walking. Right? I was walking yesterday in west Jerusalem, in Jaffa street. And when I was walking, I was reading some announcements on the wall.
Renting and selling houses for $2 million.
[00:28:46] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:28:47] Speaker E: The size of the house was 100.
[00:28:55] Speaker D: Welcome. Welcome.
[00:29:06] Speaker C: Well, that was a welcome interruption, actually.
Now, we talked about this afterwards about whether or not we could reveal the identity of this intruder into the conversation. And we're not quite sure yet. So I am going to have to leave you in suspense and perhaps with a little clue here and there, but tune in next week to hear part two of this extremely important interview. Now, we didn't even so far touch the surface of the geopolitical aspect of this issue and why. Why it's gotten the attention of the world. It involves religion, it involves politics. It involves undetermined statuses of land and, oh, on and on. Anyway, it's like a cornucopia or a pomegranate. So join us next week as we peel back more layers on this particular issue. This is the inside scoop, Jerusalem.
[00:30:23] Speaker D: So at least if you're gonna get interrupted, we were interrupted by a member of Congress.
[00:30:28] Speaker E: This is a good interaction. Who showed up to express his solidarity.
[00:30:33] Speaker D: So that's okay.
That was totally okay.
[00:30:37] Speaker E: He was a member of parliament.
