Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Do Christians in the Holy Land, especially palestinian Christians, get enough support from christians abroad?
[00:00:08] Speaker B: And what do israeli leaders think about.
[00:00:11] Speaker C: The Tucker Carlson interview with a palestinian pastor? That's what we're going to talk about today on the inside scoop Jerusalem.
[00:00:20] Speaker B: Thanks for joining.
Welcome to the inside scoop Jerusalem. You know, one of the things that I like to talk about here is the christian minority here in the Holy Land. And Christians are the minority everywhere across the Holy Land. Whether they're a minority in Israel, which is the jewish state, or whether they are a minority in the palestinian territories, in the West bank or in Gaza and also across the Middle east, they are the minority everywhere you go. And that being such, they face some unique problems as the minority.
So that's why when you've got an interview that goes viral, it makes for some very interesting media, that's for sure. So now, if you're living in 2024, I'm sure you have heard of Tucker CARLSON and you have probably seen his interview with palestinian Reverend Munther Isaac. Now, I'm going to go out on a limb and to say that probably more people will have seen that than we'll ever hear this. But, you know, for what it's worth, I'm going to give you my take on this interview. And first and foremost, my problem with this interview is that reporters who are not from here or living here, talking about the stuff that's going on here in the holy land, they're gonna miss a lot of the nuances. And that's what I feel happened with Tucker Carlson and his interview. Now, I've interviewed month or Isaac before. It was for Christmas 2023.
He was somebody that was very adamant that christians should not be having outward Christmas celebrations that year because of the war that was going on in Gaza. In fact, there was a statement that came out from heads of churches here in the holy land saying that very thing, that there should be subdued observances of Christmas, meaning there shouldn't be decorations, there shouldn't be Christmas trees, public celebrations or parties, festivities, fairs, things like that. And that was meant to be in solidarity with the christians who were suffering in Gaza. Now, at the time, this was the height of the war between Israel and Hamas in December 2023. It was just a couple months after the Hamas attacks of October 7. And the israeli military had basically just gotten going there in Gaza. So that was the take then, that christians shouldn't be celebrating. So I interviewed the Reverend Isaac because he's one of the vocal opponents of the war. He's been calling for a ceasefire for months now, and he even went to Washington, DC to state his case. He also calls the war a genocide and says that Israel is out committing genocide against the palestinian people. And that's his opinion. So there are many christians who have different opinions and different takes on that. And so I interviewed them as well for the same article. Now they'll totally disagree with him. They would not call it a genocide. They would say that Israel's response is understandable and that Israel is not targeting Christians or innocent civilians in Gaza on purpose. And they would definitely land on the israeli side of the argument, whereas he does not.
I also interviewed another priest in Bethlehem, and so I just wanted to get a wide variety of opinions about this specific situation.
But here's one of the nuances that I don't feel was stressed in the interview that Tucker did. It was an hour long, and they didn't really explain, or Tucker didn't really explain the difference between israeli or Christians living in Israel and Christians living in the palestinian territories. So the Christians living in Israel. Well, wait, first of all, I'm not saying there's a difference between the christians. In fact, many of them are related. You know, you've got christians living in Jerusalem who have family in the West bank or in Gaza. There are christians in Jerusalem that have family in the north, like in Nazareth, which is like in Israel proper. And there are, you know, they're all somehow related. And by the way, christians comprise only 2% of the israeli population and 1% of the palestinian population. So there's a lot of connection. There's a lot of people who have family. So I'm not saying there's a difference between the christians, but I'm saying there's a difference between where they live. So the christians who live in israeli cities are subject to israeli laws, and the Christians who live in palestinian cities are subject to palestinian laws. Now, the ones in Gaza are subject to Hamas, actually. So wherever they are, they have a different government above them, different legal system to which they can appeal. They have a different health care system. So the Christians living in Gaza are subject to that government. The government there is currently Hamas, and Hamas has run somewhat of a sharia state there in Gaza. Now, I'm saying the Christians are complaining about that, necessarily or speaking out against it.
Some Gazans in general may have been, but in general, but there wasn't so much talk of that.
In any case, what Tucker focused on was the israeli treatment of the Christians.
Now, that's also different from the Christians living in Bethlehem and in the West bank. The West bank is controlled by the more secular Fatah party, and they have a different situation altogether than the Gazans, and again, different from the Christians living in Israel. Now, Israel does control the borders of Bethlehem and the borders of Gaza and other areas of the West bank as well. And that's why Palestinians call it an occupation in Gaza. Even worse, they call it a siege, and not just during the war, but even before that. So they definitely have a different perspective of Israel's influence and control of christians. So, for instance, they are under the palestinian government, but they feel that it's the israeli government that is not letting them cross into Israel and get, you know, travel from there or get even to the churches.
So then there's the Christians that live in the state of Israel. So the majority of the Christians, let's say there's 185,000 Christians among 9 million israeli citizens. And they have among them, by the way, so many different denominations and different identities. I mean, you've got, like the Greeks, the Greek Orthodox, the Greek Catholic. You have the Armenian Orthodox and a small number of Armenian Catholic. There's, there's also the Assyrians. There's the Maronites, the Anglicans. There are a few evangelicals. There's even an evangelical church in Gaza, actually. But now going back to the Christians in the state of Israel, they are subject to the laws of Israel. So, for instance, I talk frequently about the issue with the armenian parking lot and the sale of that land. So that's something that would be adjudicated in an israeli court and has nothing to do with the Palestinians. So as opposed to a conflict with the church land in Bethlehem, that would have to go before the palestinian authority. So it's extremely complicated. And I'm not the expert. I know from living here. I know some of, I'm familiar with some of the situations and the complications, but I don't know everything. And for sure, I wouldn't try to let you think that I'm covering every single side of this because there are so many sides. Like an onion. There's no sides to an onion. It's round and it has a million layers. So that's how I feel about talking about the issue. But I also feel like that's the problem when somebody like Tucker Carlson, who has a huge audience, comes in and his questions are very agenda driven and targeted toward making a point. So we really have to be careful about those kind of interviews. Now, I don't think that that does not invalidate, invalidate everything that was said. I think there's, there were a lot of really good points, but it should come from the understanding of the nuances that exist here on the ground, which are extremely complicated, extremely controversial, and extremely agenda driven from many different sides. So it would behoove all of us to get a better understanding of who are the Christians here and what they are going through, what challenges they face, the myriad of opinions that they express. Because, trust me, there's not just one opinion. And remember, that's just a small minority here, 185,000 living within the state of Israel, a smaller number living among Palestinians in the West bank, and only about 1000 in Gaza. Those are the numbers from before the war broke out. And then, just so you know that of the Christians living with the state of Israel, not all of them are even israeli citizens, and many of them identify as palestinian, even though they are subject to the laws, the governance, the healthcare, etcetera of the state of Israel. So if that's not enough to confuse you, then an hour long interview by Tucker Carlson surely is not going to help the situation.
[00:11:01] Speaker C: Needless to say, this interview raised a little ire here in the state of Israel.
I had the opportunity to interview Knesset member Sharon Haskell. She's in the New Hope party, and they are currently in the opposition.
But we spoke about a range of issues. But I asked her about this interview. So why don't we take a listen.
[00:11:27] Speaker B: To what she had to say?
[00:11:37] Speaker D: It's a perfect example how Tucker can take a situation and completely distort it from the truth, and it's a perfect situation on how social media can actually do that, but completely ignoring many facts and many numbers. And he goes for the emotion instead of that. Now, try and think about it. The person that he actually interviewed, do you think he has the same rights as me and you? Democratic rights?
He didn't elected his government and his leadership, okay? This is literally a dictatorship. Okay? You don't have freedom of speech, and many times your freedom of religion is being restricted as well. Okay? If you now are bad mouthing your leadership in a dictatorship, what would happen to you? If they demand you to sort of, you know, even lie or say anything that they want on video? What would you do? Can they threat your children? Can they threat your community? Can they discharge you from your church? Yes, they can. So I would probably prefer to speak to Christians who might have those liberty and are free to speak on their own.
And look, the christian community, it's terrible what happened to them. It is.
I mean, look, the Oslo accord that came in the nineties gave, you know, has made major distortions here in Israel. I mean, think about it. Before the Oslo accord, you know, in the beginning of the nineties, before the nineties, if you look on the christian population in Bethlehem and in Ramallah, it was more than 90%, 90% of Christians. Do you know that today they're less than 10%, almost less than 5% in those two major cities. How did that happen? Were they under the control of Israel? No. Prior, maybe. But right now, under the Palestinian Authority, they are being, you know, being shrunk. You know, many of their rights are being deprived as well. Okay? So let's talk about the facts and look on the numbers.
Let's look on the numbers of Christians here in Israel, okay? Not under the Palestinian Authority. The christian communities here are thriving.
I mean, they have completely and full equal rights to any other israeli citizen, okay?
You know, many of their systems and everything is being funded same as any israeli citizen, okay? I actually worked with a few priests and pastors here in Israel to make sure that we advance the christian education system. We work with these minorities together. We cherish them. They're important for the fabric of Israel. More so, we know that the dispute, the israeli palestinian dispute, I mean, look on the terrorist attacks that have happened in Israel, devastating ones. Suicide bombers in busters restaurants. Look on what's happening now.
How come there wasn't a single christian Palestinian who went on a suicide bombing attack? Only the Muslims. We have no war with the Christians. On the contrary, they find refuge here in Israel, where they are the most persecuted minority in the Middle east. Here they are protected, they have freedom of religion, and they are free to thrive.
And it's important for us to make sure that their rights are being guarded. As any other citizen here in Israel.
[00:15:40] Speaker E: You know, I would.
[00:15:42] Speaker D: That's. I'll just add one more thing. And it's important that tucker really understand that anywhere in the world, especially the Middle east, particularly in the Middle east, where Jews were persecuted and eliminated, like my family had to flee from Morocco, hundreds of thousands from Iraq and Iran and Syria and Lebanon, you know, strong and communities that were there for generations and generations had to flee because of persecution. Jews were persecuted there. And after the jew left, who did these authority turn to? The Christians. Now the most persecuted minority in the Middle east are Christians. This is a struggle that we fight together against radical Israel.
[00:16:30] Speaker E: Although the Christians here, the citizen, the Christians who are citizens and or residents of Israel, they do feel like second class citizens here, and they feel like there's not enough law enforcement on their side when it comes to attacks on their churches. There were attacks on a church in Haifa recently. There were several taxes. It was the beginning of last year in Jerusalem that kind of lasted for like the first six or seven months of the year. Spitting and vandalism and fighting, like attacks, physical attacks and that they say there's not enough enforcement. Yes, the police may come, they may respond, but then the people don't get prosecuted. And they feel it, that. That this is what makes them second class citizens in the state of Israel.
[00:17:27] Speaker D: I have to say that's not true. I mean, look, on the monastery that was vandalized, you know, they were persecuted. They were in court and everything. I mean, there isn't any kind of discrimination in the sense of how the police treat it. Okay, so let's put, put the facts in. They are being persecuted. They are being in courts. They do receive a punishment for that. And rightfully, okay, we have to maintain and keep sacred places. And, you know, the freedom of religion here in Israel, it's massively important for us. Now, is Israel, is this utopia? No. Yes. Israel has, you know, racism. There's racism in America, there's racism in England, there's racism in France. No one's perfect. But we are committed and are striving to fight it as much as we can. I mean, I'm a jewish parliament member who go to churches, who meet the christian community to know what I can do to better their life, to fight it together. I mean, if anything, Israel is this example on how, you know, a very complicated, a very fragile fabric that is intertwined, you know, the Jews and the Christian and the Bedouin and the Druze and the Turkest and the Muslims and so many more communities are actually capable of living side by side together.
Is it perfect? No. No place on earth is perfect. But we're committed to fight and to make sure that we constantly make it better.
[00:19:27] Speaker C: Sumundar Isaac articulates very well the opinions and feelings of many palestinian Christians about what they perceive as a lack of support coming from christians abroad. But then Tucker jumps in and asks a question about basically saying that people who support Israel are supporting a direct oppression of Christians.
[00:19:55] Speaker F: So you have people in the United States, self professed Christians, who are sending money to oppress Christians in the Middle east.
[00:20:06] Speaker A: Okay, so it's Israel's fault, but it's also Christians fault for what's happening here on the ground.
[00:20:21] Speaker B: Wow. Okay.
[00:20:22] Speaker A: So as if there's a deliberate attempt by Christians to approach oppress other Christians, I think this is the part that really got me. I mean, like I said, there were a lot of good parts here. There was a lot of good explanation. And I think Munther Isaac even did a really good job of articulating how the general population, palestinian population feels. But to make this about oppression of Christians or intentional oppression of Christians, when even munther Isaac himself points out that it's actually Palestinians altogether, that the Israelis don't differentiate between muslim and christian Palestinians, and the Palestinians stand together in their nationality, not based on religion.
In any case, thank you for joining and tune in again next week. Week for the inside scoop. Jerusalem.
